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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Doncaster Gift

Doncaster Gift

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Who wins Doncaster?

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Total Votes : 279

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

1 Doncaster Gift on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:15 pm

Mex

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A lot of work has gone into the new Doncaster Gift. We hope that it will be a permanent fixture moving forwards. A healthy field with some after the win and some after a lift. Do not be surprised to see an athlete win this one with no interest whatsoever in the Stawell Gift final.

2 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:31 pm

YETI

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Finegan should win this by a mile. Will be shocked if he doesn’t .

3 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:38 pm

El Chapo Guzman

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Gary Finegan had 4.50m at Ringwood last season, where he placed 3rd behind Leigh Phelan and Kristefer Kardakovski.
Is now 0.75m worse off in hcps in comparison to these two at Doncaster, who both found some form last meet at Geelong.
Phelan had 2nd fastest heat time but missed final; has 0.25 more than his Ringwood win. Kardakovski ran 8th in the final; but was only 0.75 off the eventual winner Bailey in fastest semi.
El Chapo has Carl Morehouse in the winning frame. The 100m specialist has been unlucky coming 2nd twice so far this season to certain Easter finalists in Rizzo and Matthews. The former Stawell backies winner would be extremely dangerous off the hcp of 7.50m in 5 weeks.

4 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:04 pm

El Chapo Guzman

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Interesting to note Mex that there might be more athletes with little personal interest in the Stawell Gift final having a chance at winning this one, with three larger Gifts with various incentives to come.....
El Chapo has noticed there are 6 x former Bendigo Gift winners in this field. With the exception of Harvey (Keilor winner) and Phelan; Dobric, Rooke, Dunbar and Spencer all have greater hcps now than their winning year. The latter for e.g. has 1.5m more than his 2014 victory.
Best fronties chances of recent form are:- Singh, Naga, Whittaker and Sharma.

5 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:15 am

YETI

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Don't think Morehouse is in the same form as his sandy run.

6 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:47 am

auspro


Geelong won in 10.51. Finigan should win by 2m in 10.30 here with track adj.

7 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:09 am

Ribera

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Hopefully he declared his 10.58 pb from last week. We do not want another issue like at Ballarat.

8 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:55 am

youngy

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To his credit and now in his 33rd year, Gary Finegan appears to be in his best shape. And it appears because of that, he's been pulled 0.75m which I personally feel is a trifle unfair.

With so many athletes getting lift after lift for under-performing, and now on bigger marks than when they were at the best and won races, it's refreshing to see Finegan in career best shape at 32.

There is not an athlete on the circuit right now more deserving of a sash than Gary Finegan. He's done the hard yards and suffered in the marks because of some 'indiscretions' and several PB's, but he's kept persevering and now in the position to reap some reward for his effort.

Hopefully he wins this week.


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9 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:34 am

Ribera

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Didn't know about the pull which indicates he declared his pb.

A general shout out: Athletes need to ensure they declare pb's and wins with other leagues. Disqualification is the likely outcome if not done.

10 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:05 pm

auspro


Probably the best call of the year by youngy. Start supporting athletes having a genuine crack. Too many turning up for a Sunday jog or returning injury collecting ticks. Gary turns up to several races last year running around in 12.3s clearly hungry for a win and gets pulled for his trouble.

11 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm

fox


Finegan is close to a good thing , 10.58s (e) last week, off 4m he runs 10.15s, make adjustments for the track and at worst he running 10.25 , which still win.  He is too close to the mid markers and none of them are 10.9 runners.  

Would have to be one of the out-markers to pull a surprise win.

12 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:17 pm

El Chapo Guzman

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If Finegan wins, then has 5.25m at Easter. He will run approximately 12.15s at his best on the Stawell track.

13 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:36 pm

youngy

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El Chapo Guzman wrote:If Finegan wins, then has 5.25m at Easter. He will run approximately 12.15s at his best on the Stawell track.

Yep, maybe. And if he does good on him. Given the vagaries of Stawell, (compared to a synthetic track) my guess is he will run closer to 12.25/12.30 than 12.15.

But firstly he has to take the win this week........


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14 Re: Doncaster Gift on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:21 pm

auspro


Ran 2nd (12.46 off 5.5m) in semi against campbell (12.43) last year at stawell. massive chance of final but is he 3m quicker than last year??

15 Re: Doncaster Gift on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:44 pm

youngy

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auspro wrote:Ran 2nd (12.46 off 5.5m) in semi against campbell (12.43) last year at stawell. massive chance of final but is he 3m quicker than last year??

No....not 3m - he appears to be a metre to a metre and a half faster than last year, which suggests around the 12.30 mark off a similar mark.

Very hard to be running for around 15 years and still be capable of achieving career best shape at 32. So it's a marvellous effort.


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16 Re: Doncaster Gift on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:54 pm

fox


Finegan posted time before in the heats at Stawelll but didn't back  up in the SF. Not good at multiple rounds, not many wins despite posting time in the heats. At nationals pb in heat and ran 10.7s in SF.

17 Re: Doncaster Gift on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:02 pm

Mex

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Sometimes I am a little baffled. A recent PB of 10.58 which seems to be declared results in a handicap adjustment if required. The system is clear in that. Being deserving of a sash has no bearing on what the computerised system will allocate whatsoever. There are lots of deserving athletes that do not win. Peter O'Dwyer has not won a gift since Ballarat, Hignett, Ireland, Whittaker, Rogers. All entered this weekend (except the oldest of the Ireland's), have been around for a long time and have not won a gift sash in a long time. All very deserving. I would personally like to see any one of them win this weekend but the reality is that they will likely not get the chocolates.

For a target time of 12.25 Finegan should have 4.25m (no adjustment added for track conditions in my working out based on his PB of 10.58). This equates to 3.5m for the 100m.
Throw in an allowance for the track of .10 equates to 5.25m for the 120m and 4.25 for the 100m.
Having 4m for the 100m this weekend is probably generous given that your starting handicap should be to run 12.45sec and we have not seen Finegan over here this season. In fact, it is probably very generous as Eschebach did not get handicapped to 12.25 when he first ran at Terang.

18 Re: Doncaster Gift on Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:59 am

auspro


Finegan and Eschebach raced over 100m 2 weeks ago. Finegan beats him by 5m and starts around 2m behind in handicaps.

19 Re: Doncaster Gift on Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:55 am

youngy

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Mex, I assume you've been around a while and long enough to know that in most instances where an athlete has been re-handicapped based on an exposed PB, they don't or rarely win at their next start. The main reason is there is generally one or more in the field who are also in best shape but do not venture out to an 'amateur' meet, preferring to protect their mark and unleash their best shape in a pro race.

Now in terms of your preferring the 40 year old plus athletes you mentioned who have enjoyed significant success in this sport and may not have won for a while to win rather than Gary Finegan - you have been incredibly mischievous in avoiding one significant fact.

Gary Finegan is in PB shape. That is - the fastest he has ever run. And he's been prepared to risk his handicap by proving it in the amateurs.

The others haven't run a PB for a dozen years or more and are now on much bigger marks than the marks they've had in the past to achieve success.

It's bloody ludicrous to mount a case for some old codger to win off a double digit mark while Gary has to 'bide his time' for another year or so.

How much faster does he have to get before he's entitled to win his FIRST SASH!  Rolling Eyes

Really, this thinking that codgers have some entitlement to continue winning our major races until they finally hang up the spikes
is from the stone age.

The masters and veterans races are for the old runners well past their best.


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20 Re: Doncaster Gift on Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:06 pm

Mex

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I guess the old argument of those who run week in and week out is also lost in translation. I am sure there are other races he could have won over his time. Being an interstater does not simply give you a right to win. If you run a timed 100m race and you run a well deserved PB it will affect your handicap. That is the choice you make as an athlete and as a coach. Nathan Riali managed both last season, Romanin as well. You can run both but cannot cry foul if an adjustment is made due to your time.

I also guess that only old codgers should have a double digit handicap in big races. If the limit has an old codger competitive off their mark why is it a problem? Lets not talk about winning off double digit marks then shall we as 10.75m in '85 seems to be a double digit handicap.

21 Re: Doncaster Gift on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:40 pm

youngy

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Mex wrote:I guess the old argument of those who run week in and week out is also lost in translation. I am sure there are other races he could have won over his time. Being an interstater does not simply give you a right to win. If you run a timed 100m race and you run a well deserved PB it will affect your handicap. That is the choice you make as an athlete and as a coach. Nathan Riali managed both last season, Romanin as well. You can run both but cannot cry foul if an adjustment is made due to your time.

I also guess that only old codgers should have a double digit handicap in big races. If the limit has an old codger competitive off their mark why is it a problem? Lets not talk about winning off double digit marks then shall we as 10.75m in '85 seems to be a double digit handicap.

We can agree to disagree but thankfully your archaic views aren't the norm.

By the way unless you were around in 1985 I'm not sure you have the credibility to be comparing the current era with that of 30 years ago. There were in excess of 160 runners entered in Gifts in those days and it was an inflated handicap landscape. Some of the winning times run today would be lucky to win a heat in the mid 80's. In many Gifts in the 80's, heat winners only advanced to the semis.



Last edited by youngy on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:34 am; edited 2 times in total


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22 Re: Doncaster Gift on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:32 am

youngy

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One more thing....(there always is Very Happy )

A wise man once said you're only good as your last handicap. When I retired my last mark was 5.75m.  tongue

I've said it several times before, the vets races are for vets if you want to keep running into your old age.

I do admire those athletes who can keep running at a decent level well in to their 40's such as Tim Johnson, who is still ultra competitive off a mark he was running from 20 years ago.

But I'm not a fan of runners who are  "telephone numbers off their best" due to old age and think they should still be just as competitive as a young athlete who is in PB shape.

There's plenty of opportunities to contribute to this sport as you advance in age, such as coaching, officiating, helping to put on a meet, etc.


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23 Re: Doncaster Gift on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:36 pm

youngy

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While I hope Gary Finegan can win his first Gift at Doncaster, it definitely looks a pretty exciting race for an inaugural gift. A few contenders are in great form, consistently around the mark. Looking forward to seeing the result.

Just a side note.....the Flagstaff Hill Gift is on in Adelaide tomorrow. It will the 23rd running of the event. Nine of the 22 Gifts run to date have been won by athletes off double digit marks (probably what a mug like me would have needed.).

The average mark for a Flagstaff Hill Gift winner is 9.65m.

Only three athletes (out of 22) have won the gift from a mark less than the 'traditional bench mark' novice mark of 7.00m.

2005 Duncan Tippins 4.75m
2015 Chris Innes-Wong 6.50m
2017 John Evans 6.00m

Gee those names are familiar. Laughing


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24 Re: Doncaster Gift on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:33 pm

Mex

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Defend your mark as much as you like. You have won something that not many people can win and nobody can argue with that, it just so happens that not many with that mark are given the opportunity these days but as you said the calibre has changed to keep the limit at 10m Shocked

One thing about a forum is that people are allowed to have a differing opinion as long as it does not fly in the face of certain contributors. I have posted for a while now and given a small snippet to make each week a little more interesting but maybe it is time to stop. Perhaps the next time we have a yarn Youngy we will still disagree on certain things but one thing is for sure and that is the handicapper, using the handicapping system, will continue to adjust athletes marks in accordance to the rules. As an official in charge of handicaps I thought that would be obvious to you.

Finegan cannot argue the rules of handicapping which are freely available to all of those who have an internet connection. His mark, in my books, could be considered generous as he should still be handicapped to run around 12.45 for the 120m as he has not run enough in Victoria this season to be handicapped any differently in accordance with the guidelines. He has made choices along the way which may be the reason why he has not won a gift. He ran second in a semi at Stawell in 2007 and was possibly unlucky to not make the Stawell final, this may also be a reason why he has made certain choices not to win but you would have to have that conversation with him and his trainer at the time. Was it him who ran in Canberra that time as well or should we not bring up what has been reported previously by the media?

I like that you highlight athletes who have won flagstaff off less than 7m. I thought it was a taboo subject to talk about CIW any more but apparently not. Next you will tell me that the video of Woodhams I have seen where he looked amazing at Loxton is not to be posted. When was he second? 2010 I think and his mark is now looking pretty juicy one might agree. But then he probably deserves to win too. Do you have Youtube Goldy?

My rant is over, I will probably now be banned (although I should not be and it would be quite petty if I were) and will not recreate an account if I am. I will keep my opinion to myself if this happens. The only thing I can agree with that has been posted in this thread is that "we can agree to disagree". Unfortunately there was more to come after that statement which is why I have commented and unfortunately my archaic views are inline with the CURRENT handicap guidelines. I will take my spreadsheet and go home now.

I will not comment further on this subject either, lets see if I can post about Bendigo next week where I could catch up with Youngy over a quiet one which we have done many times before at various venues.

Yours in disillusionment
Mex

25 Re: Doncaster Gift on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:45 pm

Bang bang


C'mon Mexy chill bro, how bout the good old write up on the Poll? Makes for a good read!! Looking forward to it, thanks in advance Bang Bang

26 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:18 am

youngy

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Mex
You aren't being banned nor am I deleting your post.

But you have certainly stooped to a new low making it quite personal and attacked me (and others) on a number of fronts. I have never made out that I was some star athlete but as a coach, I reckon I've done pretty well with a number of decent backmarkers, some who weren't backmarkers when they started.

I was just perusing the Flagstaff Gift program and I noticed that only 3 athletes of the 22 winners came off a mark less than 7m. Not sure why that would trigger a rant about stuff that 's totally unrelated.

In none of my posts have I got personal about your achievements, your mark, your training partners etc. I don't even know who you are, so it's not relevant.

I attacked your argument that Finegan wasn't deserving of a sash. And because you haven't got a reasonable opposing argument you drag up other stuff.

I think you should apologise and edit your post. Some of it is pretty ordinary.

As Bang Bang suggests - chill out and post your analysis of the race, which is always a highlight of the week.  Very Happy


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27 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:33 pm

Whispers


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Flagstaff is probably not a good track to compare anything with, down hill suits the front markers and big double figures.,
I think old codgers Harrison and Hancock will be hard to catch today and you can rule out any female under 10m in their race.

28 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:59 pm

Baltimore Jack


Leigh Phelan is due. will be hard to beat at Donny. Should be a ripper with Finegan flying home. If he's been running since 2007 with no wins, you can't begrudge him a sash, surely Mex. Chill man. Mex should have done his summary instead of going all Michaela Cash.

29 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:55 pm

jknott123


youngy dont even reply to people who have no idea what pro running was when you and i ran todays pro running is a joke especially the distance events check the handicaps that they win off today unreal the 70s and 80s when i ran if you couldnt run 4.02 for 1600m or 8.40 for 3200m you couldnt win and these times were off handicaps of 160m and 265m i often wonder whether the people marking the track out get it wrong.todays 1600m and 3200m are won off handicaps that are ridiculous and in times that are slow.pro running has extended the handicaps so far out from where they used to be and times are so much slower why??

30 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:24 am

youngy

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jknott123 wrote:youngy dont even reply to people who have no idea what pro running was when you and i ran todays pro running is a joke especially the distance events  check the handicaps that they win off today unreal the 70s and 80s when i ran if you couldnt run 4.02 for 1600m or 8.40 for 3200m you couldnt win and these times were off handicaps of 160m and 265m i often wonder whether the people marking the track out get it wrong.todays 1600m and 3200m are won off handicaps that are ridiculous and in times that are slow.pro running has extended the handicaps so far out from where they used to be and times are so much slower why??

Good points Knotty.

Could you imagine how apocalyptic some would get if next week's Bendigo Gift was won in 12.08s as it was in 1991?

I thought I could run 12.20 off my mark (8.50m) so had $100 on myself at 10-1. I ran 12.14s and 'only' managed to get 3rd behind Todd Ireland who ran 12.08s.  Very Happy

Pretty sure the Bendigo 10000 had about 25 heats that year and the limit was 11.00m.

By the way, Baltimore Jack was on the money. Phelan was due and duly delivered. Good work BJ.



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