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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Doncaster Gift

Doncaster Gift

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Who wins Doncaster?

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Total Votes : 279

Go down  Message [Page 2 of 2]

31 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:27 pm

fox


Youngy you have made some factual errors. Finegan has won races in Queensland, Coomera Waters Gift. But its not too much of stretch to say that he some expertise in deception and deceit, we know his history. He didn't turn up at Doncaster, probably arguing his 0.75m pull.

Having read the above posts, your attitude does appear to be harsh towards athletes with bigger marks and masters athletes. You have done well with the athletes and the marks they have won from.

This place will be less intriguing with the absence of Mex weekly write ups.

32 Re: Doncaster Gift on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:28 pm

jknott123


Hey youngy paddy turner winner of black opal tonite off 27m last year had 34m did not run back 7m ?? This year jake hilson back 15m lonain burnett back 11m?? How does this happen

33 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:05 am

SANCHEZ


Because we handicap to a system. Those runners must have fast runs in their samples. At the start of every season they will be brought back to the starting target time and they will need to work they way out by competing. If they don't run they will stay on those marks. Turner mustn't have had any fast times in his sample that would bring him under the start time so he would start on what he finished off on. Give Turner his dues, he did go and win a 400 at Northcote early in the season.

34 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:28 am

chopper


He had a 47.28 at Stawell off 34m
Beat Burnett in his heat. Was the fastest 2nd place to NOT get in final
Meets Anderson his heat winner at Staweell (he won the event) 14m better off, burnett 3rd in his stawell heat 4m better off
Stayed on 34m and won Northcote.
Ends up on 29m and gets pulled 2m when the field gets pulled 5m

35 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:31 am

DizzyRunner


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
chopper wrote:He had a 47.28 at Stawell off 34m
Beat Burnett in his heat. Was the fastest 2nd place to NOT get in final
Meets Anderson his heat winner at Staweell (he won the event) 14m better off, burnett 3rd in his stawell heat 4m better off
Stayed on 34m and won Northcote.
Ends up on 29m and gets pulled 2m when the field gets pulled 5m

A very descriptive post.
How about some evaluation?
Do you disagree with any of the facts you have shared?
Who has been treated harshly/generously?

Tell us what you really think Chopper.

36 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:45 am

chopper


what I really think

The Black Opal is an absolute highlight - it should be close.
To win a classic it should be the best you ever run for that time of your life
Younger runners who have not entered a classic before should have reduced chance of winning that event
Additionally, they should be handicapped on their best performance and earn the right to win such events
We have troubles lining up womens sprints and circle events in classics.
Handicapping should not be that hard

It would have been a lot closer if the winner had been pulled the 5m like the rest of the field
If a discretionary 2m pull was to be used it should not have been unless you have actually considered the young runner and his Stawell form - which really dictated 22-24m as his handicap when you look at the rest of the Stawell runners who went under 48sec last easter.
A 53sec 400m in his last open 400m run is also taking the piss (maybe there were some other factors I am not aware of) - but I am not concerned about that as much as the unpredictability of the circle classic handicaps

37 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:33 pm

Admin

avatar
Admin
Admin
AVONDALE HEIGHTS 400m (17/2/18)
HEAT 2
1 Red 8083 Dominic Hoskins 19.00 51.324 51.324 Completed
2 Orange 0109 David Haigh 48.00 51.705 51.705 Completed
3 Pink 3505 Liam Hanrahan 32.00 51.949 51.949 Completed
4 Black 5757 Robert Keenan 38.00 52.007 52.007 Completed
5 Grey 3884 Tim Halpin 40.00 52.351 52.351 Completed
6 Yellow 9714 James Mistarz 27.00 52.570 52.570 Completed
Green 3113 Paddy Turner 29.00 53.209 53.209 Completed
9999 White 2761 Aidan Green 23.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 Blue 7147 Buddy Williams 26.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 Purple 0017 Allan Cook 60.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 Red-White 0377 Wayne James 70.00 0 0 Scratched

On the surface this doesn't look good, but surely there's a logical explanation for it. Especially as Turner won Northcote earlier in the season. He doesn't appear to be one to deliberately run last in a heat. I can only assume something went awry on the rough track at Avondale Heights.

Drawing a line through Hoskins it's a 25m improvement in 3 weeks? Rolling Eyes

http://protrack.forumotion.com

38 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:50 pm

The Master


If you thought a 53 second 400m was taking the piss chopper have a look at this result from Meadowglen earlier this season

1 8 Grey 4345 Christian Sapardanis 68.00 48.975 48.975 Completed
2 3 Blue 9733 Endale Mekonnen 25.00 53.675 53.675 Completed
3 9 Orange 4354 Claire Hurley 90.00 54.538 54.538 Completed
4 1 Red 3113 Paddy Turner 13.00 57.239 57.239 Completed
5 10 Purple 4364 Elouise Kerr 95.00 59.386 59.386 Completed
9999 2 White 7050 Anthony Dempster 18.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 4 Yellow 7698 LACHLAN MILLIGAN 29.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 5 Green 4736 Will Oglethorpe 50.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 6 Pink 3968 Gabriella Boulton 60.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 7 Black 2577 Jody Richards 60.00 0 0 Scratched

Huge improvements since November for the lad, I wonder what his 70/120 form is like? One to watch next year in the gifts I'd think

39 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:01 pm

chopper


i think it is probably more than 25 m
but my point is not that

It is the basic fundamentals of pro handicapping

Lets look at this heat
I am the handicapper and I am thinking
Lets give the youngest runner in the most prestigious 400m race less of a pull than any of his competitors - I can ignore his age - young runners on big handicaps never win the Opal

I will ignore the fact he has never entered before
I will ignore the fact I can draw a reasonable line through this guy by his restricted, U20 and open 400m wins
I will ignore the fact he has won Northcote beating some of the fancies in the Opal and I will allow him to meet them better off
I will ignore the fact he missed out on the Stawell backmarkers by a lip in fast time
I will ignore the fact that I am letting him meet the Stawell Backmarkers finalists at least 4-6m better off
I will reward him for running well below his best form in his last 4 runs - I am sure this is all legitimate
I will reward him for his last run

40 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:12 pm

chopper


1 Yellow 6224 Mitchell Palmer 27.00 49.551 49.551 Completed
2 Red 8083 Dominic Hoskins 17.00 49.868 49.868 Completed
3 Blue-White 7486 Conor Loughnan 19.00 50.756 50.756 Completed
4 Green 3113 Paddy Turner 29.00 51.594 51.594 Completed
5 Red-White 1755 Anthony Holbery 69.00 51.635 51.635 Completed
6 Purple 1254 Greg Hilson 54.00 51.854 51.854 Completed
7 Pink 3505 Liam Hanrahan 32.00 53.005 53.005 Completed
8 Grey 6261 Alec Wiltshire 43.00 53.719 53.719 Completed

Keilor - still 15-20m behind Hoskins.
Turns it around a fair bit for Bendigo about 4.5secs improvement
Still this is pro athletics

What is not is the handicapping from Keilor to Bendigo showed a 4.5sec loss

41 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:28 pm

Thatsthestats


Let’s face it they have had a shocker on the weekend the handicappers. Women’s 120m was ruined by what I thought was an over generous mark given to the winner. No fault of hers but killed the spectacle. The last two Opals have been not much to watch either.

42 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:01 pm

chopper


i think the sprints are harder as there are more runners and more interstate entries
For the women the handicapping possibilities are more than 10% of the distance - so more room for error
The circle events - they were only 50+ entries with hardly any interstate entries (not surprising considering the handicapping "system")
As Einstein definition of insanity - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result
Dont suppose we will hear any explanation nor any intention of how Stawell is to be handicapped

43 Re: Doncaster Gift on Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:39 pm

timrosen35


I wouldn't normally comment on a handicapping matter such as this and I won't be directly commenting on any athlete in particular. But I just want to say this.

All I've seen lately is people complaining about Darryl's handicapping, people complaining about the BONUS event he organised for the Master's athletes. Complaint after complaint.

Do any of you understand how much time and effort he puts in to make this sport happen for us? He has about half the events on the program to handicap each week. Most of them have been handicapped exceptionally well this season if you ask me. No doubt he will make a mistake or miss something from time to time, but I thought the opal was a great race! And going into the final you could've made a case for 4-5 athletes winning. Maybe even more! (And yes I understand this is not the argument being made). Also I am not sure how anyone could complain about a bonus event with bonus prize money and prizes! (300 masters)

We have all got annoyed about our handicaps from time to time. I mean I thought he was harsh on my 400 start mark this year. But show a little bit of appreciation for once for the job he does.
I don't see anyone else stepping aside from racing and putting their hand up to do the job for him? Without people like Darryl, this sport is dead. Simple as that.

Ok rant over. See you all at the track soon Smile

44 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:55 am

chopper


in sport we are judged by our performance in the big moments
the rest is just practice

If you think about the Black Opal final with the 4-5 chances.
Winner analysed
angelakos got a 3m pull from runner up Bendigo in good time. Then next week gets DQ after beating Mitchell who then protests. As a reward Mitchell gets pulled 4m for the Opal. The field is back 5m for the Opal. Angelakos doesnt have to pass anyone in backmarkers.

Maurer 34m Ballarat. 2nd in heat. then fastest heat time Avondale off 34m. Gets 2m lift for Doncaster . Was 2nd quickest athlete all day but runs 8th in final. Then gets pulled to 34m for the Opal. Of the Bendigo finalists from last year he lost the least -6m. The rest lost between 11m and 15m (excluding winner and runnerup who started from Castlemaine). He also made the Stawell final where the average loss was 11m. How does this work?

Evans wins Camden classic as a first year runner 13 months ago off 20m. Has won 5-6 races and shows real promise. Gets pulled only 4m plus the 5m the field is back. The current Camden winner Dartnall gets pulled 12m from Camden. How does this work? Has he run extensively over 400m in Victoria? Not that there were many South Australians to line him up against (why would anyone come) but he would be meeting them significantly better off despite having won the Camden Classic

Boudrie didnt enter The Opal last year but along with those that competed at Stawell where the average loss of handicap for those that finaled was 11m he only lost 7m (only Maurer lost less).

Sabbatucci, Hilson and Kenshole both finalled in 2017 at bendigo and Stawell but lost 12m, 16m and 15m respectively. Well done them on making Black Opal final but they really had no hope

It is not about the runners - you get what you get and you run - how is any of this logical

45 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 am

Admin

avatar
Admin
Admin
You are wasting our time Tim when it comes to 'chopper'

Chopper is the number handicapping expert - after the race has been run. The king of hindsight. He offered none of this 'logic' regarding the actual athletes before the event. Just talked generalities. He didn't have a clue which athletes were benefitting by his assessment.

This sums up chopper - "Armour wins".

Jack Armour didn't run.

I take it all with a grain of salt.

After the heats most of us were satisfied there was no stand out 'lay down misere'. As Tim said there were at least 5 genuine contenders.

Yes, there's some concern regarding Paddy Turner's lead in form however none of this was noted until after he won.

Daryl Nettleton does not have a malicious bone in ihs body and genuinely tries to do his best by every athlete. If you have a grievience he will hear you out.

I don't have anywhere near ther amount of work Daryl has, and I invest an enormous amount of time to the handicapping process. I can not imagine how much he must do.

http://protrack.forumotion.com

46 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:45 am

chopper


Fair enough call Admin. I will move off the topic. Think I hate this getting the field to scratch. ‘Tis difficult to follow

47 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:46 pm

Ribera

avatar
Expert
Expert
Admin wrote:AVONDALE HEIGHTS 400m (17/2/18)
HEAT 2
1 Red 8083 Dominic Hoskins 19.00 51.324 51.324 Completed
2 Orange 0109 David Haigh 48.00 51.705 51.705 Completed
3 Pink 3505 Liam Hanrahan 32.00 51.949 51.949 Completed
4 Black 5757 Robert Keenan 38.00 52.007 52.007 Completed
5 Grey 3884 Tim Halpin 40.00 52.351 52.351 Completed
6 Yellow 9714 James Mistarz 27.00 52.570 52.570 Completed
Green 3113 Paddy Turner 29.00 53.209 53.209 Completed
9999 White 2761 Aidan Green 23.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 Blue 7147 Buddy Williams 26.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 Purple 0017 Allan Cook 60.00 0 0 Scratched
9999 Red-White 0377 Wayne James 70.00 0 0 Scratched

On the surface this doesn't look good, but surely there's a logical explanation for it. Especially as Turner won Northcote earlier in the season. He doesn't appear to be one to deliberately run last in a heat. I can only assume something went awry on the rough track at Avondale Heights.

Drawing a line through Hoskins it's a 25m improvement in 3 weeks? Rolling Eyes

Avondale Heights 400m heat with Turner in Green.
Wearing tights suggests something was not right with his body. Whilst it was an extreme turn around in form, there may be legitimate excuses. His Northcote win showed he was capable on his best form.



Here's the Opal final and their previous 400m run.

Turner – 7th in heat Avondale 400m 3 weeks earlier.
Angelakos – 2nd in Ballarat fronties 400m final 5 week earlier. Talked to by stewards.
Maurer – 8th in Doncaster 400m final the week before.
Evans – 3rd in heat at Camden 400m
Sabbatucci – run out of heats at Doncaster the week before.
Hilson ?
Boudrie ?
Chimmenton – 4th in heat Avondale 400m 3 weeks earlier.
Kenshole – 3rd in heat at Ballarat 400m backies. Beat Turner home in the heat.

48 Re: Doncaster Gift on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:12 pm

vicoutsider

avatar
Must say, hard to look past a lot of these facts. Very much agree with the above, that sort of a turn around in just 3 weeks is rarely possible, even for a sprite teen.

At the end of the day, it was another good classic race and another good win by an athlete. Well done to all who made the final, what's done is done, let the winner and finalists relish the fact they were part of such a grand race with slightly less controversy than last year.

I really enjoyed attending and spectating both the men's & women's gift, watching Lugo somehow miss out on the double, as well as some of the best 400m pro runners going around and give it their all.

Fact is, if Angelakos, Maurer or Evans won, I wonder what would have been said then??  

There will always be silly errors made, just as there will always be inexplicable improvements made. Turner was the best runner on the day, congratulation to him and his coach. Well planned, well executed.

49 Re: Doncaster Gift on Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:22 pm

HarryWho


A bit of talk regarding the Bendigo 400, here is the data for all entrants and their handicap from previous meets. Camille, Greenough, Maurer, Turner all staying on their Ballarat handicaps with 2 of this group going onto the podium. A few others as highlighted only coming back 1. Not sure who earned lifts between these meets but there seems to be a degree of inconsistency - poor Nathan Jones got pulled 7m from his last run! Regardless, as vicoutsider mentioned it was a great spectacle with no clear winner going into the final. Blistering run by the young lad a well deserved win.


Athlete

Bendigo

Doncaster

Avondale

Ballarat
/////

Diff B/D

Diff B/A

Diff B/Bl

Stuart Aberdein

15

19

18

18


4

3

3

Robert Adin

33














Jack Anderson

5

10

10

10


5

5

5

Noddy Angelakos

39 - 2nd



42

42 - 2nd




3

3

Ryan Antidormi

33



38

38 - NAP




5

5

Jack Armour

27

30

30

30


3

3

3

Joel Bee

0





5






5

Lindon Beh

26

30






4





Nikolas Berry

40














Jason Blood

31





34






3

Andrew Boudrie

11

15

15

15


4

4

4

Matt Burleigh

29



34

33




5

4

Lonain Burnett

22

25

25

24


3

3

2

Ryan Camille

28



29

28




1

0

Michael Chimenton

24

30

30 - NAP




6

6



Jarrad Dartnall

25

29






4





John Evans

11














Carrick Gill-Vallance

38



39






1



Doug Greenough

23



25

23




2

0

Liam Hanrahan

28

33

32

32


5

4

4

Jake Hilson

10





14






4

Dominic Hoskins

16



19 - NAP






3



Nick Howard

40

48

48

47 - NAP


8

8

7

Kendra Hubbard

40














Paul Hughes

29














Callum James

21



26

25




5

4

Nathan Jones

25





32






7

Katherine Katsanevakis

40














Robert Keenan

35



38






3



Ashley Kenshole

7





12






5

Harrison Kerr

10

15



15


5



5

William Little

23

26

26

26


3

3

3

Brett Maurer

34 - 3rd

36

34

34


2

0

0

James Mistarz

24

28

27

26


4

3

2

Greg Mitchell

18



22

22




4

4

David Morrissey

36














Liam Moss

12














Rory Nunn

22





27






5

Justin Palmer

36

42 - 1st

40




6

4



Michael Romanin

9














Tim Rosen

35

38

38

38


3

3

3

Samuel Sabbatucci

22

25

24

27 - 1st


3

2

5

Glenn Stephens

40

45

45

43


5

5

3

Joshua Tiu

32

38

38

38


6

6

6

Paddy Turner

27 - 1st



29

27




2

0

Connor Verrall

14














Stefan Voorham

21

26

26




5

5



Shane Woodrow

16





17






1

Hayden Wyllie

25





30






5

Thomas Yeung

26

30



28


4



2

Cameron Yorke

26

29



27


3



1

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