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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Women's Gift

Women's Gift

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1 Women's Gift on Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:57 pm

Slowcoach


No disrespect to Forsyth, she is obviously a class runner and executed a great race, but I think I speak on behalf of most of the locals and interstaters with exposed form, and that is how can someone, who based on yesterday race would run a sub 12 sec 100m, get a a handicap of 7 metres? Looks like the 2013 fiasco was forgotten.

2 Re: Women's Gift on Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:14 pm

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Probably got rewarded with her 7m for running 15.027 off 6.50m the year before Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

3 Re: Women's Gift on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:32 pm

Sprinter101


10m improvement in a year

4 Re: Women's Gift on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:01 pm

untouchables

avatar
Heat 6 2017 Women's 120m second last in 15.02



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI1kjew_Btk

5 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:44 am

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Just looking at the results , it looks like she just did enough in the heats on Sat to get through and avoid a rehandicap, then on Mon went bang and BANG.
My guess is that Marra is back from Holidays and all over it.

6 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:09 am

BMara


Come on fellas, fair suck of the sauce bottle, her last run was 12 months ago.
You can't seriously want to execute someone for putting 12months of hard work.
We would have had a great number of inquiries if we based them on 12 month old form.
Look at the results of all winners and compare the stawell 2017 form to Stawell 2018

7 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:31 am

untouchables

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I thought it was a great coaching performance. these guys should be at Australian institute of sport

8 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:06 am

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Hey Mara , shes from Qld , I would be checking all videos , photos etc to make sure its not another Fine Cotton ring in................only joking of course Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

9 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:44 am

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
She had the form on the board ….beach sprint champion.

I'm astounded by the number of people who think Australian beach sprint champions can't Sprint fast. It isn't the first time.

10 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:17 am

Slowcoach


Surely we are not condoning runners to put up an average run at Stawell, go into hiding for 12 months then turn up in good shape and improve over 10m to win the biggest race of the year?  

The runners who are turning up week after week supporting the circuit are going to get pretty disenchanted with the whole system if that is the case.

Forsyth improves 5m metres from heat to final. If a local improves that much from 1 meeting to the next they would be crucified.

We want to encourage interstate participation, but they should have a minimum number of exposed form races before they qualify. Participation rates are dropping and this result won’t help the situation.

On a positive note, I think the handicapping for the majority of the other women with exposed form was very good. A blanket finish from 2nd to 6th in the final, and the semis were also competitive races.

11 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 pm

Whispers


ProTrack Star
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Fast wrote:She had the form on the board ….beach sprint champion.

I'm astounded by the number of people who think Australian beach sprint champions can't Sprint fast. It isn't the first time.

No one is disputing that Beach Sprinters cant Sprint fast .
To run 15.02 off 6.50m in 2017 at Stawell.
Then to have exposed Beach Sprinting Form but still get a half metre lift youve got to ask if the handicapper  rates beach sprinting or  looks at beach sprinting results.
Surely Beach Sprinting results need to be included on entry forms.

12 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:38 pm

SANCHEZ


You may be right Whispers. Maybe beach sprint results need to be included, if even to compare the abilities of the beach sprinters entering. Even still it is very hard to blame the handicapper for giving her .50m lift from one year to the next when you watch a replay of last years heat. No-one could predict that level of improvement.

13 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:51 pm

Slowcoach


SANCHEZ wrote:You may be right Whispers.  Maybe beach sprint results need to be included, if even to compare the abilities of the beach sprinters entering. Even still it is very hard to blame the handicapper for giving her .50m lift from one year to the next when you watch a replay of last years heat. No-one could predict that level of improvement.


Agree SANCHEZ, beach sprinting results need to be looked at more closely (although I think we all said that 5 years ago).

However the handicapper shouldn't have to predict anything.

It should be a requirement that all athletes entering Stawell should have had at least 4 official times (professional or amateur) recorded throughout the season before being eligible to compete.

That may not solve the problem totally, but would at least give the handicapper something to work with.

14 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Robbo


Hi Guys, usual sort of post Stawell blow out then.
- I can confirm that EJ didnt train the two weeks after beach nationals leading into Stawell and was an end of season trip with squad for her
- EJ is not a beach sprint champion of any sort or at any level. She has won and u19 beach flag event which is over 20m
- I can confirm that every beach sprint or beach flag result for the last three years was declared
- I can confirm that she had declared 7 track times from qsac in the last 18monts including a race in January.
- I can confirm she had a shocker on Saturday which we can’t explain. We have a couple of theory’s but all guess work.

Happy to answer any of your questions. I don’t have anything to hide. We just prepared as good as we could.

Robbo

15 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:16 pm

Sprinter101


Slowcoach wrote:
SANCHEZ wrote:You may be right Whispers.  Maybe beach sprint results need to be included, if even to compare the abilities of the beach sprinters entering. Even still it is very hard to blame the handicapper for giving her .50m lift from one year to the next when you watch a replay of last years heat. No-one could predict that level of improvement.


Agree SANCHEZ, beach sprinting results need to be looked at more closely (although I think we all said that 5 years ago).

However the handicapper shouldn't have to predict anything.

It should be a requirement that all athletes entering Stawell should have had at least 4 official times (professional or amateur) recorded throughout the season before being eligible to compete.

That may not solve the problem totally, but would at least give the handicapper something to work with.

That proposed requirement would have ruled Matt Rizzo out of this years gift then.

16 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:32 pm

Baltimore Jack


After three years of kids winning our biggest race off huge marks, methinks Elizabeth Forsyth is a breath of fresh air. off 7 metres, runs 3rd in her heat and 2days later explodes away to win.
The girl is 21, she was 3rd in the beach flags at the aussies last year. She was 9th in the open beach sprint. Davina Strauss beat her.
Good on her. she gave 3.5 and 4 metres start and beat the two fronties into 2nd and 3rd.
Since the race went to 40k no one has won off less than 10.25.
until now.
Thanks to Elizabeth for giving the womens gift some respectability.

17 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:57 pm

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
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Baltimore Jack wrote:After three years of kids winning our biggest race off huge marks, methinks Elizabeth Forsyth is a breath of fresh air. off 7 metres, runs 3rd in her heat and 2days later explodes away to win.
The girl is 21, she was 3rd in the beach flags at the aussies last year. She was 9th in the open beach sprint. Davina Strauss beat her.
Good on her. she gave 3.5 and 4 metres start and beat the two fronties into 2nd and 3rd.
Since the race went to 40k no one has won off less than 10.25.
until now.
Thanks to Elizabeth for giving the womens gift some respectability.

You are forgetting that the last 3 Stawell’s had blanket 3m lifts for the field, that would mean Forsyth’s mark would have been the equivalent of 10m in those years.

18 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:04 pm

JJones


I’m not sure there is a perfect solution really And no disrespect to Elizabeth and Robbie who sIezed the day but I’m looking at this from the perspective of Kate who runs regularly and always to the best of her capability , ran a PB at Stawell but could never have got close to Elizabeth if she had made the final. I think the objective should always be for someone to win the gift who has improved less than a few metres from their previous recent best so I do think there is some merit in looking at a minimum criteria such as three or four runs at the distance during the season and yes I would have no qualms at all about excluding anyone on that basis. If there was such a rule I’m sure that anyone who felt they were a chance to win $40,000 would turn up at three Vic races. Further it would be fair to disqualify an athlete if there was an unacceptable improvement from their seasons best. I guess I realise this could never happen in a Stawell Gift Funal but without such draconian measures I suspect there will always be opportunity for athletes to win at the expense of others with exposed and consistent form throughout the season. .

19 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:07 pm

Robbo


I doubt that she would have got 10m as the I seem to remember 3m wasn’t a blanket lift for OGA athletes. I had much better sprinters sitting out on 8+ that couldn’t get near those winners. It is a sexy thought however, I would’ve loved to had our 7m girls sitting out on 10m. Did anybody ask why we didn’t get the full 3m...
Ludicrous wind adjustments aside I doubt you are suggesting FAST that it is better for someone to run 13.39 off 10+ than EJ running 13.68 off 7m.
We did everything expected of a gift winner... we prepared well and declared everything.
I’m not out there selling the reinvention of the system just trying to provide my athletes with the best chance of winning. Perhaps get on that train.



20 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:13 pm

Slowcoach


Baltimore Jack wrote:After three years of kids winning our biggest race off huge marks, methinks Elizabeth Forsyth is a breath of fresh air. off 7 metres, runs 3rd in her heat and 2days later explodes away to win.
The girl is 21, she was 3rd in the beach flags at the aussies last year. She was 9th in the open beach sprint. Davina Strauss beat her.
Good on her. she gave 3.5 and 4 metres start and beat the two fronties into 2nd and 3rd.
Since the race went to 40k no one has won off less than 10.25.
until now.
Thanks to Elizabeth for giving the womens gift some respectability.

There would be very few who would think that someone who rearly competes on the circuit (amateur or pro) then wins the gift by 3m, gives the event any sort of credibility.  The opposite effect I would think.
If the regulars who turn up week in, week out, feel they aren't on a level playing field, the numbers will continue to decline as they did this year.

21 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:32 pm

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Robbo wrote:I doubt that she would have got 10m as the I seem to remember 3m wasn’t a blanket lift for OGA athletes. I had much better sprinters sitting out on 8+ that couldn’t get near those winners. It is a sexy thought however, I would’ve  loved to had our 7m girls sitting out on 10m.  Did anybody ask why we didn’t get the full 3m...
Ludicrous wind adjustments aside I doubt you are suggesting FAST that it is better for someone to run 13.39 off 10+ than EJ running 13.68 off 7m.
We did everything expected of a gift winner... we prepared well and declared everything.
I’m not out there selling the reinvention of the system just trying to provide my athletes with the best chance of winning. Perhaps get on that train.




I was never in favour of such blanket lifts they undermined the integrity and quality of the event and were never required but they should be taken into consideration when trying to compare performances and years.

I have no idea as to what was declared or not or if it was anywhere near the equivalent of 12.15 run she did to win Stawell. Elisabeth is a quality athlete and I would say a 12 flat runner on synthetic or a touch better (based on her Stawell win uphill on grass) and a worth winner under the current system.

Maybe I should take your advice and just concentrate on trying to beat the system rather than try to improve it. The problem we have though is that pro-running is struggling and there should be incentives for those that compete week in, week out and I have a vested interest in the success of the Ballarat Gift.

Enjoy the win they are difficult to achieve.

22 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:14 pm

Dragon Walrus


Rumour has it next year the women's will also have the incentive lifts. Won't that change it up a bit. I think it's a few years too late.

23 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:01 pm

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Robbo wrote:Hi Guys, usual sort of post Stawell blow out then.
- I can confirm that EJ didnt train the two weeks after beach nationals leading into Stawell and was an end of season trip with squad for her
- EJ is not a beach sprint champion of any sort or at any level. She has won and u19 beach flag event which is over 20m
-  I can confirm that every beach sprint or beach flag result for the last three years was declared
- I can confirm that she had declared 7 track times from qsac in the last 18monts including a race in January.
- I can confirm she had a shocker on Saturday which we can’t explain. We have a couple of theory’s but all guess work.

Happy to answer any of your questions. I don’t have anything to hide. We just prepared as good as we could.

Robbo

EJ may not be a Beach Sprint Champion but its pretty good beach sprint form to get beaten into third spot by second placegetter THE POCKET ROCKET Nicole Kay.
No way Nicole would have ever got 7m if she ventured down to Stawell in 2018.

24 Re: Women's Gift on Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:15 pm

untouchables

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Bmara has told you how to win stawell 12 months of hard training in a good athletic squad don't worry about running in val or av races during the year, go to stawell and run like the wind. easy as Very Happy and don;t forget to watch The Sting the night before. cheers

25 Re: Women's Gift on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Sprinter


Robbo

You had a good quality sprinter well handicapped and trained to peak at exactly the right time only one person can win, so everyone else is going to have something negative to say. Keep up the good coaching and bringing quality athletes to run, we will just have to find better ways around the system if we are running in Victoria. The system does have flaws but there is no right or wrong fix but it does have to be looked at.

26 Re: Women's Gift on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:49 pm

SANCHEZ


There is no knock on the girl whatsoever. Ran well and produced when it counted off a mid range mark. If you are handing in the beach sprint performances in, then you are doing your part. Hard to believe she ran 3rd in her heat.

27 Re: Women's Gift on Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:10 pm

K.B


Robbo,

Ignore the negative posting/jealousy and the need to defend your runners. At the end of the day there can only be one winner. You improved a runner by 10 metres over a 12 month period without playing the system so kudos to your athlete and your coaching/training program. Please continue to bring quality athletes down each year. Any coach who can peak there athlete to the day as well as you have deserves to be the winner. It’s refreshing to see a runner not requiring 12 - 14m to win the gift. There are other classic/group 1 races for athletes on these marks to have the opportunity to win a race. I’m sure there will be backlash with this comment but it restores credibility back to the women’s stawell gift when an athlete such as yours on 7m can win the gift. From a neutral spectator most would agree they would rather see this than a winner from 12-14m like the previous couple years. Keep up the great work.

28 Re: Women's Gift on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:09 pm

Admin

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Admin
Admin
I agree KB and Baltimore Jack.

I thought the women's Bay Sheffield was intriguing and exciting. After the heats there was no clear cut favourite. That semi run by Elizabeth Forsyth added serious WOW factor to the race. EJ reminded a bit of Alicia Wrench-Doody at the 2008 Bay Sheffield.

I just thought it was refreshing to see a virtual unknown 21yo athlete off the 'traditional' novice mark emerge. We can now follow EJ as someone who graduated from the Stawell Gift and hopefully goes on to bigger & better things.

For anyone to be concerned - just check out the last three results since it went to 40k. This was completely different and by no means does it open any flood gates or change the landscape.

I'm sure there's coaches in the VAL with teenage girls sneaking out in the marks, plotting and planning to bring some 'normality' back next year.

http://protrack.forumotion.com

29 Re: Women's Gift on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:58 pm

FortySevenThirty


Elizabeth Forsyth 7m
Handy Recent PB of 12.45sec so any more improvement could see her figure prominently here. Watch

That’s how I summed this girl up in my pre Stawell Formguide. I didn’t watch last years heats I just went off information I could find. Which wasn’t a lot.

I think we have to give Robbo and EJ some huge congratulations here. The man is a strategic genius. Sorry more of a Magician.

You can correct me if I am wrong about any of these steps Robbo because I would love to know if any or some or none of these steps where in your grand plan or if winning the Stawell Gift was even a plan at all.

Step 1 Bring EJ down a year earlier and establish a start point which was 15.02 off 6.5m Ok Trainer and Athlete now know what is required to win the Gift. Need to improve her 10m. Challenge excepted by EJ

Step 2 Train backside off for nine months and realise around Christmas time that this pipe dream is now a reality

Step 3 Now the masterstroke. Create the illusion that she has improved 5m/6m with a new PB of 12.45sec that can anybody who can spell google can find.

Step 4 Don’t enter Women’s 70m

Step 5 Bet Big. I saw some decent bets put on just before the heats at $12. I would love to know if you got more.

Step 6 I know you said EJ had an unexplainable shocker in the heat and I believe that, but it really took the pressure of being the Gift favourite off her. After that heat I said to myself , that plunge is not going to come off. Last years winner Ryan also was third in her heat after a betting plunge on her in a bit of a coincidence. So coming third worked well and hopefully you hit the bookies again after she drifted back out, if indeed she did. So that was either another masterstroke or just a piece of luck.

Step 7 Run like an absolute gun twice on the Monday. Mission complete

Anyhow congrats to yourself Robbo and EJ ,what a star. Probably wins the race still off 5m.
The common denominator with both Forsyth and Despard was they set themselves the goal and through dedication and meticulous preparation were both able to get the job done.

The only thing I would say maybe is if an interstate runner comes down to Stawell and it is their first start of the Season in the VAL that maybe they can’t have a bigger mark than their last Stawell appearance but that probably is not an incentive for the Interstater that only wants to run at Stawell.
Can anybody tell me if an established runner can have a larger mark than their previous seasons Stawell mark. I legitimately can’t get all the way through all the handicap rules and regulations without my head exploding. Anyhow congrats to both Stawell winners as they both ran incredible races. Congrats again Robbo your systems obviously work and I love watching your crew having a gallop at Stawell every season

30 Re: Women's Gift on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:32 am

Runforit


40730, agree with most of your post, but don’t treat us as fools Robbo if you want us to believe Saturday’s run was an unexplained shocker. It was someone trying to hide their form in the heats, to avoid a rehandicapping. Got no issue with how you executed the last 12 months within the rules, but we didn’t come down in last shower.

I don’t have the answers but I would like to see a regular win the women’s gift (no offence), but at the same time we need interstates there! Great to see Phelan and Boudrie get up- we’ll deser

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