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PROTRACK » GENERAL » SAAL - First meet in four weeks at Sacred Heart (now 2 weeks)

SAAL - First meet in four weeks at Sacred Heart (now 2 weeks)

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Admin

Admin
Admin
Admin
There's now less than 4 weeks to the first scheduled carnival at Sacred Heart on October 13.

As at today, the SAAL Website does not have the nomination page available, so the events and prizemoney are not known.

In the past the SAAL extends entries for the first meet to about the 21 day mark before the meet. So there is still time to get it up on the system and encourage athletes to enter. But it needs to be done soon to ensure athletes get their entries in and there are reasonable numbers for the meet.  

There is a new handicapping system in place right across all events in all age groups so consideration needs to be made to ensure there is sufficient time to allow the handicapping system to be updated with results to ensure marks are properly allocated.

From my own experience, it would take about 7 to 10 days to digest all the information just to submit the marks for the juniors. These marks normally had to be submitted to the SAAL by the Monday before the first meet to allow them to published on the website and be ready for the program. The time frame for this gets tighter each day as we don't know what the events are.

I hope the nomination page appears soon so we can start to plan for the meet.

http://protrack.forumotion.com

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
Just to let people know who may not be aware.

Both Leon Burckhardt and Jenny Poole resigned from the SAAL, finishing up last month.

The new execitive officer is Kathy Blute, who has been involved in athletics for quite a while, albeit not too much with the SAAL, but she's been an athlete, a coach as well as performed a number of admin roles within the sport and the Dept. of Rec & Sport.

Leon Burckhardt is no longer the senior handicapper and I'm no longer junior handicapper.

There is a new handicapping system in place to be administered by Chris Aston. Tim Johnson is on board as integrity officer.

There are no designated handicappers for seniors, juniors or veterans nor for sprints or middle distance.

It's one system for all.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

timj


Firstly Paul, Thankyou for the post and I want to acknowledge your efforts as a handicapper and to the sport over many years. Certainly being a handicapper is a tough , time consuming and often thankless task and hats off to those that have previously taken up the post.
While I’m not directly involved in the nomination process I believe they are very close to going up.
As Paul has mentioned there has been a change to the handicap system. Its an exciting time for the league where we’ve been able to incorporate technology to assist in providing a more transparent process moving into the future. The SAAL coaches had a briefing a couple of weekends ago and an information session for all athletes has been set up for this Saturday 21st Sept , at SA athletics stadium Mile End starting at 2pm. I encourage you all to attend.
While the handicap process has changed the important thing to remember is that the fundamentals behind handicapping have not :
- The athlete to run to the best of their ability each and every time
- The aim to set a mark so the athletes cross the line together and each has an equal chance to win
- Every athlete is treated the same.
- Being transparent.
A significant amount of time and resources have already been spent by the Handicap Model Admin Team on this over the last 8 months, including significant data collection over winter to be ready for the first race.
I hope to see you there Saturday.
Tim J

SANCHEZ


Surely the rumours can’t be true that you won’t be allowed to run at the Bay if you haven’t competed 3 times before Xmas? That would kill the event. NSW , QLD and WA runners would be out of business and most Victorians will struggle to get three meetings in before Xmas given there are only 5 meetings in Victoria and many don’t go to Warrnambool and Terang due to distance.

Todd Ireland


Expert
Expert
Can someone from the SAAL actually confirm or deny this rumour? As a coach with runners considering coming across we need to know this before runners organise flights and accommodation. If this is true then obviously they may have to consider where they run over that period as there are other options.

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
SANCHEZ wrote:Surely the rumours can’t be true that you won’t be allowed to run at the Bay if you haven’t competed 3 times before Xmas? That would kill the event. NSW , QLD and WA runners would be out of business and most Victorians will struggle to get three meetings in before Xmas given there are only 5 meetings in Victoria and many don’t go to Warrnambool and Terang due to distance.

Yes. My understanding is an athlete needs to have competed three times during the 3 months prior to the Bay Sheffield.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

SANCHEZ


Thanks Youngy. They are obviously keen to restrict interstaters from coming across and taking any spoils. Most Qld, NSW and WA runners will struggle to comply.Even the Vics are going to struggle. Does that mean Josh Ross, Luke Stevens, Matt Rizzo etc won’t be allowed to compete if they haven’t run the thee times? This could be diabolical for the meet. How about the SAAL coming out and making a definitive statement about this.

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
SANCHEZ wrote:Does that mean Josh Ross, Luke Stevens, Matt Rizzo etc won’t be allowed to compete if they haven’t run the thee times? This could be diabolical for the meet. How about the SAAL coming out and making a definitive statement about this.

Yep, Yep & Yep.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
First carnival nominations are up on the SAAL website.
Meeting at Sacred Heart is on 13th October.
Entries close 7th October.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

Mex

Mex
Moderator
Moderator
The new guidelines need to be posted on all forums and websites to allow for transparency. According to info I have read on the 3 race rule, "Non SAAL meetings can contribute to this condition". This would appear to be the way that interstate athletes can race at events like Bay Sheffield. It also says that "The '3 race rule' can be 1 race distance up or down". This will also help athletes from interstate.

Some clarification would be good though. Perhaps SAAL could send something to all organising bodies which can then be sent to all athletes?

ToM

ToM
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Some questions:
1) How will the SAAL police this? If athletes turn up at the start but have only had two runs, will they be DQ’ed or will their entries not be accepted? If for some reason they don’t or cannot achieve three performances, will they receive a refund on their entries?
2) Will athletes be responsible for updating a profile on the SAAL site each time they compete, or do they have to flood the admin email address? Can they register a performance venue prospectively?
3) Can athletes enter events at The Bay, given the traditionally early closing date for entries, even if they won’t compete a third time until a week or two prior to The Bay and after entries are closed?
4) Do performances at state amateur or school competitions (Shield/Interclub, APS Finals, state All Schools) or national competitions (Aus All Schools, Aus School Nitro) count?
5) Is there an MoU between the various state leagues to allow communication between the stewards from each state should there be question marks over performances? If not, what is the point of requiring three performances?
6) Is there any exemption if injury prevents an athlete from competing three times?

This seems like a reasonable idea in principle, but poorly executed in practice given the time and manner of the implementation. This would have worked if all state leagues were able to adjust their programming to accommodate.

Some have suggested that with this the SAAL is shooting themselves in the foot, but this feels a lot higher up and closer to the midline to me. I guess we’ll find out when we see both the total entries and actual number of athletes in attendance.

JH

JH
Expert
Expert
The silence is deafening!

airtight

airtight
Great post ToM.
Lost lots of experience from the office. they would be all over this and putting releases out.
New team in town.
Seems like it was a good idea at the time, but now its time to roll it out, its like, how and what do we do?

ToM

ToM
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
SAAL are using Teamapp. From the rule book for 2019/20 (https://saal.teamapp.com/documents):
“14.18 3 Race Rule
To ensure all athlete who have improved significantly can record performances that will re-set the Handicapping and Stewarding Model algorithm, a mandatory ‘3 race rule’ will be imposed each season. This will require athletes to compete in 3 races in the prior 3-month period to running at a meeting where the first prize offered to the winner of the feature race is $1,000 or more. Non S.A.A.L. races conducted by a recognised professional or amateur athletic body and events 1 distance up or down can contribute to this condition. For example, an athlete can run in 70m, 120m and 200m races to qualify for a 120m race, or 400m, 550m and 800m races to qualify for a 550m race.
Under 18 Athletes must compete in 3 open age races prior to running in an open age race where the first prize offered is $1,000 or more.
Races can be accepted up until the Monday prior to the meet or in the case of the Bay Sheffield, until the end of the last S.A.A.L. carnival prior.
An application to waive the requirement of the 3 races can be made to the S.A.A.L. committee for consideration in exceptional circumstances. For example, an international level athlete currently out of season may be eligible for an exemption. Approval is at the absolute discretion of the Committee.”

ToM

ToM
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
An interesting item towards the end:
“22. MISCELLANEOUS
22.1 Detrimental Statement
No official or registered member of the S.A.A.L. shall make any accusation or detrimental statement concerning any athlete, coach or official without providing full details of all evidence to substantiate such accusation or statement before a meeting of the Management Committee.”

The Morphy Mongrel

The Morphy Mongrel
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
ToM wrote:An interesting item towards the end:
“22. MISCELLANEOUS
22.1 Detrimental Statement
No official or registered member of the S.A.A.L. shall make any accusation or detrimental statement concerning any athlete, coach or official without providing full details of all evidence to substantiate such accusation or statement before a meeting of the Management Committee.”

Why is it necessary? does VAL have anything similar?

The Morphy Mongrel

The Morphy Mongrel
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
How did it go?
when do results get posted on the website?

EyeSeaAll


The Morphy Mongrel wrote:How did it go?
when do results get posted on the website?

Live results were posted in the TeamApp throughout the day.

Some of the notable winners included:
120m Open: 1st - Laucirica 21.50m - 12.451 (only 1 runner under 13.50m was in this final)
70m Open: 1st - Laucirica 12.75m - 7.557
120m Womens: 1st - Sulicich 15.00m - 13.984
70m Open: 1st - Sulicich 9.00m - 8.383
800m Open: 1st - Gillings 136m - 1:44.88

Was a very interesting day of spectating

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
25 athletes competed in the gift. So the list below is the 25 from the heats plus the 8 finalists. Of the top 10 times recorded from the heats, only one athlete was on a mark less than 11.25m.

1 Sam Laucirica Purple 21.50 12.451 (Final)
2 Brandon Smith Green 14.00 12.484 (Final)
3 Samuel Blyzno Blue 13.50 12.560 (Final)
4 Sam Laucirica Purple 21.50 12.567
5 Brandon Smith Black 14.00 12.676
6 James Boden White 13.25 12.698 (Final)
7 Luke Houlihan Red 6.75 12.742 (Final)
8 Samuel Blyzno Green 13.50 12.805
9 Luke Houlihan White 6.75 12.842
10 Michael Papanotis Yellow 13.75 12.853 (Final)
11 Jacobi Ponury Pink 18.75 12.865 (Final)
12 Michael Papanotis Black 13.75 12.897
13 James Boden Green 13.25 12.902
14 Declan Bonham Black 18.25 12.940 (Final)
15 Declan Bonham Black 18.25 12.942
16 Jacobi Ponury Black 18.75 13.073
17 Bryce Watkins Yellow 11.25 13.091
18 Timothy Blyzno Green 12.25 13.131
19 Geoff McKechnie Pink 25.25 13.144
20 Tomas Semmler Red 5.50 13.216
21 David Wilczek Pink 21.00 13.222
22 Jordan Tronnolone Blue 7.50 13.23
23 Misha Lizoguboff Yellow 10.50 13.231
24 John Evans Red 4.00 13.303
25 Harrison Hunt Red 0.00 13.364
26 Jesse Cordoma Red 4.50 13.388
27 Damian Tohl Blue 8.00 13.394
28 Jacob Tidswell Green 12.00 13.398
29 Jacob Aston White 5.75 13.464
30 Jarrad Dartnall Yellow 11.25 13.544
31 Mitchell Tucker Blue 7.00 13.591
32 David Gross White 6.25 13.602
33 Adrian Harris Yellow 11.00 13.828

Tomas Semmler (5.50m) was 12th fastest athlete from the heats. He ran a PB of 11.01sec the day before at Athletics SA Open Day. His Sacred Heart Gift time gave him a 100m rating of 11.54sec for the Sacred Heart track, suggesting Sacred Heart was about half a second slower than the stadium rubber.

Harrison Hunt - 10.75sec at SANTOS ran the equivalent of 11.14sec. He is a stronger finisher than Tomas so he had a 100m equivalent of 11.14sec for Sacred Heart.

Based on the MPS, Semmler would have had to have run 10.83s at SANTOS stadium on Saturday to be in the mix for the final. To make the podium he would have had to run about 10.47sec at SANTOS on Saturday.

For Hunt he would have had to run 10.45 at SANTOS to be in the equivalent shape to make the SH Gift final and 10.11s shape to make the SH Gift podium.

Challenging times.  Very Happy


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

20SAAL - First meet in four weeks at Sacred Heart (now 2 weeks) Empty Jack giddy on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:58 pm

Castlemaine jim


Hey guys thinking of taking a few athletes to Jack giddy on Dec 21.cant find much info on numbers prize money surface grass or track any help would be great

Trackstar

Trackstar
Moderator
Moderator
David Gross 6.25???
Stawell Gift 2019
David Gross 10.0m 12.678
Why did Gross go back 3.75?

Ribera

Ribera
Expert
Expert
Good analysis Youngy.
Seasoned runners with long histories generally look to be handicapped OK and all ran around the same times (in most distances). The problem is the newer runners / younger runners have not got relevant samples and as such are grossly over handicapped.

This is a disaster for the SAAL. New systems / processes take time to bed down and it may sort itself out. However, the SAAL PR/marketing need to quickly open communication to all stakeholders and explain the anomolies.

Speaking with some Vics over the last week, they are no longer coming to the Bay Sheffield. They see the handicap allocations as a form of chooklotto and it is not worth their time and money to be in a raffle. Sunday's results did nothing to allay their fears.

Personally, I'll still be coming to the Bay as I love the carnival but more so the non Bay Sheff attractions Glenelg offers.

EyeSeaAll


Picture this situation. You sign up/ agree to be a lab rat for research purposes and are monitored and tested over a large period of time so a researcher can obtain a large sample size to support his research. At the end of this, you are compensated monetarily for your time in participating in this test.

Now compare the above situation to what SAAL is currently doing. Athletes are paying to be lab rats and be tested on. SAAL already has the research and historical data on most athletes and if they DON'T have a large enough sample, then a runner should remain on the novice mark until a lift is justified.

I can't work out why SAAL wouldn't just implement the same system that VAL use? Or as the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". As a spectator and athlete, I have found the level of competition in SAAL to be competitive over the past 10 years.

If I was a runner, I would be very hesitant on sinking my money into SAAL unless I was a) under the age of 18 and b) guaranteed to be off 13m or more.

The heat is on SAAL and it will be interesting to see the nomination numbers for Port Adelaide in a few weeks time.

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
Ribera wrote:Good analysis Youngy.  
Seasoned runners with long histories generally look to be handicapped OK and all ran around the same times (in most distances). The problem is the newer runners / younger runners have not got relevant samples and as such are grossly over handicapped.

This is a disaster for the SAAL. New systems / processes take time to bed down and it may sort itself out. However, the SAAL PR/marketing need to quickly open communication to all stakeholders and explain the anomolies.

Speaking with some Vics over the last week, they are no longer coming to the Bay Sheffield. They see the handicap allocations as a form of chooklotto and it is not worth their time and money to be in a raffle. Sunday's results did nothing to allay their fears.

Personally, I'll still be coming to the Bay as I love the carnival but more so the non Bay Sheff attractions Glenelg offers.

Simple reality is if Tomas Semmler is in PB shape at a small meeting with only 25 entries, he shouldn't be 2m out of the final and another 5m out of the podium.

Because I know of his situation  - John Evans is in the same boat - he's tracking around PB shape (11.24s) and ran very well considering how far back he was. Yet without winning a 120m race last season, and not making the final at Loxton off 5.0m - he's been yanked back to 4.0m and is now about 7m out of a race. I estimated Evans would have had to have been in 10.48s (for 100m) shape to make the Sacred Heart podium. His last win over 120m was over 2 and half years ago and it was at Kensington where he won about $500, his biggest collect in a 120m.





Last edited by youngy on Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

youngy

youngy
Admin
Admin
In response to Trackstar's comment about David Gross. My understanding is Grossy's base 120m open mark was about 9.5/9.75 but he went back about 3.50m for winning the over 35s at the Bay Sheffield carnival. Apparently it was a 120m event at a Category One carnival so he has to cop a category one penalty. He ran from his new mark of 6.25m - and ended up second slowest in the heats.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

David Gross


Afternoon all,

I was either approached or asked about the reasons behind my handicap close to ten times at the SH carnival; there still seems to be questions raised over it. When the handicaps were released I was obviously surprised and emailed the league asking if it had been a typo or misprint. Tim Johnson was very swift and forthcoming in his reply in which i was grateful for. There is some of response which I am still bewildered at, but this could be due to being obtuse to the new system. (FYI I have not appealed my handicap or approached any race day officials over this.)
Below is the quoted email - I hope that this provides some clarity and its justification will keep the motivation for interstate athletes to compete this season.

Thanks David


---------- Sent message ---------

Afternoon Tim,
Could you please double check my handicap accuracy in regards to the 120m Open event.
2018 - 10.00m
2019 - 6.25m
I understand there is a new system in place and altercations would be made but could there be a misprint or typo from what was printed on the website ?
Thanks David

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From:
Date: Thu, 10 Oct. 2019, 9:20 pm
Subject: Enquiry into Handicap for Sacred Heart
To:


Hi David

Thank you for your email

The change of handicap system is definitely a significant mind shift to
what we have had previously however the aim of the Model is to have
greater Transparency , Fairness and Integrity.

It may assist you to refer to the presentation which is on the League
Team App page while reading this email.

The Model now calculates your handicap based purely on your previous
results which are converted to metres per second. Your top 3 all time
results , your top 3 results the over the last 3 years and the top 3
results over the past year are weighted to determine your "Base Mark" .
The "Base Mark" is , in an ideal world when everyone is in shape , the
mark that would have the athlete cross the line together with everyone
else. Everyone would have a chance to win.

Your base mark is very similar to last year and sits in the high 9's.

Here's where its handy to refer to presentation, especially the page in
regards to penalties.

In the case of your current mark, you still have a penalty degradation
from your win in the 035 120 at the Bay Sheffield. The penalty relates
to the type of carnival. In this case the Bay being a category one, due
to not only the prize money but the prestige of the meet. The penalty is
applied to include all 120 runs.

This penalty though is reduced every time you run at a following
carnival. We see this as a positive as where in the past the Handicapper
might say "David's got a bit more in him, we wont lift him just yet" and
that "just yet" turning into years, under the new Model you are
guaranteed to peg back a part of your handicap to your base mark at
every carnival you run. Same goes for your Vets mark. In essence
athletes who have won will see their marks lifted and become more
competitive a lot more quicker.

Most penalties from last year have been exhausted already due to a
smaller penalty length being applied to the smaller carnivals ie
Category 5 only has a 2 meet penalty and you get 1/2 your penalty back
each time you run post win. Most penalties from the bigger carnivals
ie Bay, Loxton and Stawell are still in place due to a larger carnival
penalty however these are reducing every carnival run at by the athlete
post win.

I hope this helps to understand your current handicap.

There is a new process in regards to enquiring about your handicap.
While we are transparent and have no issues providing more detailed
information to you, unfortunately due the actions of a few in the past
who took advantage of the old system, we have had to put a fee in place
for each handicap enquiry. Obviously i'm not intending to apply it in
this case as i see this as an opportunity to explain a very new system
to a long term advocate of the sport.

In fact if you have further enquiries about the Model in general please
feel free to call me for a chat on (x)

All the best in your racing this year,

Tim Johnson

Integrity Officer - SAAL

SANCHEZ


I’m sorry SAAL, but your whole system loses all credibility with the above example. How can a restricted race winner (be it masters or novice) be pulled in an open event for winning a restricted class of race, unless they have broken the target time. Not only pulled, but pulled 3.75m!!. This is a bigger pull than the Stawell Gift winner would normally receive, for a runner that is a veteran and has been running for 10 plus years. It is a diabolical example of a flaw in the system. Thankfully we in Victoria don’t have to put up with it ,as runners will be leaving in their droves. As a comparison the winners of the masters 100 or novice 100 at Stawell would normally receive zero penalty in open races as they are competing against a far weaker pool of runners.

Trackstar

Trackstar
Moderator
Moderator
Jesus Christ - WTF? That response is frightening.
10.0 back to 6.25 for winning a vets race.
Hunt goes 3.75 to 0, wining Bay.Gross gets same penalty.
No wonder Gross got heaps of people asking. No one would believe it. Thanks David for posting the email. I thought young was joking.
Tassie will be happy!

timrosen35


I was one of the people who asked David why his marks were so out of whack. And I’m staggered to see that he received a 3.75m penalty in the open gift for winning a vets 120. Not only that, he won this before the new system was in place! If he had known about this penalty there is no way he would’ve contested a vets race (I think? Haha). As much as I’m sure he’s glad he won it.

To be honest the marks and in turn results from the meet on the weekend confused the hell out of me. And the times were ridiculous! And the gaps in the final fields too. Maybe I just don’t understand the new system well enough in SA yet, but it just looked like any established runners who had ever won anything or run a decent time were not going to get near the unexposed athletes. So basically juniors and new runners with the most scope to improve will win everything no? I always thought that wasn’t the intention of pro running. But again maybe I’m just being naive. I’ve always thought the SA system was pretty decent? Always some mistakes and some who get under the guard but that has always happened in pro running. Didn’t realise it was so bad that it needed a drastic change.

There were a couple of SA meets I had intended to run this season, but I’m a bit unsure about what marks I would receive and penalties I would receive if I won so I will probably give it a miss now until I understand better.

Ribera

Ribera
Expert
Expert
The Gross example looks like the definition of madness. Pulled the same as the Bay Gift winner.
He should receive a heavy penalty in all O/35 races only.
Any gift penalty should be zero or at a stretch maybe tied back to prizemoney won. Treated like a small gift penalty.
Also his O35 mark may have been over inflated and had no parity to his Gift mark.

i understand the SAAL's thinking regarding big race wins, but in this example they've got it wrong.
Please tell me the U18 Bay winner & Restricted Bay winner will not also receive 3.75m pull in Gift mark.

We all accept mistakes so long as they are fixed. Time for the SAAL to review this rule quickly.

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