Parkdale Women's 800m

This race looks great. What a great idea to run a rich women's distance race. I am looking forward to this one.

Hoping the backies will be very competitive in the heats and possibly the final. Hopefully the best athlete off their mark will win. To gift a backie this race would be a sin, as would handicapping them out of it. Hope it’s close.

Unfortunately race is handicapped to 2.10 for all the regulars based on there best times, the backie is a 1.58 runner which is a track allowance of 6 seconds a lap.

May not be in her best shape but doesn't really need to be close to her best to win this, if not then one of her fellow first timers will be. Disappointing how the rank & file have been treated here.

This is a fairly unique event and a chance to showcase pro athletics to an audience that does not look favorably on pro athletics.
If a smoky pro was to blow the field away it would be the worst result. 2nd worst result would be for a first timer to the pros blowing the field away.
Best result here is a close finish with a spread of handicaps in the final.

Looking at the handicaps, the pros have been moved out and the race looks set to about 2.06.
If the first timers are handicapped to their current shape and the pros moved out 20 or so metres from their start handicaps (From a 2.10 target time to a 2.06 target time). This should make it a good close event.

If Bisset is in 2.04 shape right now and a 2 sec grass track allowance then it is about right for her.
2 years ago Katherine Katsanevakis was given scratch at Stawell. Her p.b. was 2.01.75 set in a grand prix in Texas in 2014. She was a regular under 2.03 but no longer in that shape. Catriona is 3 secs quicker under similar conditions. So to move the field out about 4 secs for Catriona seems about right.

The back 3 pros look to have moved out 20 or so metres. R Gilden 36m to 62m, O Goder 40m to 62m, E Gilden 40m to 66m.

It is an event not run many times per season so it has far greater chance for a smokey as Stawell results show below with quick times. Plus young girls can improve rapidly over a winter.
We have not had a winner at Stawell in the last 5 years under 100m in handicap.
Stawell 2019 – 2.07
Stawell 2018 – 2.03.5
Stawell 2017 – 2.01.4
Stawell 2016 – 2.02.3
Stawell 2015 – 2.06.1

Ribera wrote:This is a fairly unique event and a chance to showcase pro athletics to an audience that does not look favorably on pro athletics.
If a smoky pro was to blow the field away it would be the worst result. 2nd worst result would be for a first timer to the pros blowing the field away.
Best result here is a close finish with a spread of handicaps in the final.

Looking at the handicaps, the pros have been moved out and the race looks set to about 2.06.
If the first timers are handicapped to their current shape and the pros moved out 20 or so metres from their start handicaps (From a 2.10 target time to a 2.06 target time). This should make it a good close event.

If Bisset is in 2.04 shape right now and a 2 sec grass track allowance then it is about right for her.
2 years ago Katherine Katsanevakis was given scratch at Stawell. Her p.b. was 2.01.75 set in a grand prix in Texas in 2014. She was a regular under 2.03 but no longer in that shape. Catriona is 3 secs quicker under similar conditions. So to move the field out about 4 secs for Catriona seems about right.

The back 3 pros look to have moved out 20 or so metres. R Gilden 36m to 62m, O Goder 40m to 62m, E Gilden 40m to 66m.

It is an event not run many times per season so it has far greater chance for a smokey as Stawell results show below with quick times. Plus young girls can improve rapidly over a winter.
We have not had a winner at Stawell in the last 5 years under 100m in handicap.
Stawell 2019 – 2.07
Stawell 2018 – 2.03.5
Stawell 2017 – 2.01.4
Stawell 2016 – 2.02.3
Stawell 2015 – 2.06.1

Look for another of the amo “backies” to feature for mine.

Thanks Ribera I think is is a reasonable assessment of the race and I hope it is every bit as good as you may predict it to be here but there are to many why's involved and I do not think it helps the event in any way.

No disrespect to the girls but why have we picked this event to showcase when clearly as you have confirmed the handicapper has never been able to get the marks right ?

Why not pick a regular event to showcase ?

Why are they not handicapped to 2.10 as the regulations advised, and if not why haven't the Athletes been advised of this change in the regulations ?

If you say it is 2.06, why have some girls been handicapped to this and other's not ?

Why has the track allowance for artificial tracks been totally disregarded again as specified in the regulations ?

Why do we have regulations for this event if they are not going to be followed ?

I hope that this is the showcase that a few feel it is going to be, however I don't think we will see other clubs clammering to get this event on there programmes after this one as unfortunately there is no support by the VAL to give this event any respect at all. Quite similiar to the SAAL handicapping system at the moment it is a lottery.

I predict it will be a runaway winner, hoping it will not.

My views were purely my opinion.
My views are not linked to the VAL strategy as I do not know it.
I made the 2.06 up based on my very brief analysis.
I used the word 'showcase" as "in my opinion" it is a chance to showcase an event containing the Aust record holder.

If any first timer runs to p.b. shape they win comfortably.
If any smoky pro improves to Stawell level they win comfortably.

It looks generally well handicapped in my opinion.

Thanks Again Ribera, I sensed by your analysis that you had only looked at it briefly.

Your if's are the one's that worry me, you can't do much about the smokie who improves but if a first timer runs close to their PB they win comfortably that is the one you can control.

If they run close to there PB they should go close to winning they shouldn't win comfortably, it is what is expected from every other Athlete in the VAL but in this instance the Handicapping of this race means a few first timers are not expected to do this and hence they are giving a opportunity that the girls who have continued to support this event are not.

Bissett is given an allowance of 1.5 sec per 100m, imagine if Bolt enetred the Stawell Gift and was given 1.5 sec allowance. It wouldn't go down well and it wouldn't happen.

Why again disrespect this event, I am looking forward to the event because of the class of field but alas I have this feeling I will be disappointed in the result at the end of the day

Whatever the result, hopefully there are more positives than negatives from this race.

Whenever there is an event that is not raced consistently throughout the season (ie. raced at most carnivals), there will always be an element of uncertainty toward unknown entities. Happens in the 2 miles, the 550's (though, as more 550's raced these days, this is becoming quite a well handicapped and popular event), open 300's, 200's etc.

I know that the handicapper has done due diligence with the start times, pb's of amo's etc, so that's all he can do at this stage.

With the amo runners, pb's are really all you can go on for a benchmark, in order to handicap effectively.

Whether it is a "showcase" event or not (as Ribera said, it is a chance to showcase an event containing the Aust record holder, not necessarily an attempt to showcase the event itself), I believe all bases, in order to handicap this race as effectively as possible, have been covered. As I've mentioned, I hope it's close, and, apart from my own squad bias, I don't really care who wins. If one of the backies is good enough, good luck to them. If a frontie can hold on, excellent as well. There's always the potential for someone to come out of the woodwork, but, sometimes, that's "pro" running. In the defence of the amo ladies, their form is possibly more exposed than anyone else in the race, so it will only be handicapping that will provide victory or not. Also remember that most amo runners haven't had to experience a race where they've had to chase down athletes from the gun, and until you have, you never know how you will respond. Has brought many an inexperienced athlete undone.

I think, whatever the outcome, we should be applauding Tim Mason, for his foresight and ambition to make this one of the big races on the program (as well as on the circuit as a whole), and his ability to have attracted the amo ladies to come and race. It is a $2000 race, and, in the current climate, I think we (the sport) owe it to entrepreneurs like Tim to support these events as much as we can. Having been involved in the organisation of a few meets over the years, I can appreciate the amount of work Tim has put into this carnival, and we have seen it grow exponentially over the past few years.

Let's hope for a fast track, fast times, and great racing.

Agree Downsey in all the talk around the Handicapping here by myself primarily I must congratulate Tim Mason for putting this race together and to get a field assembled as he has.

This is not an easy task and a thank less one at that and he should be commended for the effort that this would have involved.

I look at this race as the Herb Hedemann of Parkdale. All discretionary handicaps. It is a special event.
Tim has sought some good runners who do not run pro and no doubt the extra sponsorship $ are tied in with this.
If you want a normal $700 pro race, I'm sure this can be organised instead at another carnival.

Ribera wrote:I look at this race as the Herb Hedemann of Parkdale. All discretionary handicaps. It is a special event.
Tim has sought some good runners who do not run pro and no doubt the extra sponsorship $ are tied in with this.
If you want a normal $700 pro race, I'm sure this can be organised instead at another carnival.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is a terrific initiative by Tim, supported by the League, and critical given the large untapped pool of “amo” distance runners.

I can certainly empathise with the frustrations of the regular participants in Women’s 800 events, but in many ways this is similar to the Stawell lift. We know that every year some participants will find 10 seconds from here to the Stawell 800 final, so athletes have to gamble on exposing their form in having a crack at the purse here, knowing that their Stawell attempt may be hamstrung for the season.

The more we can attract quality backmarkers to become regular participants to the sport, the better off we all are. It certainly lends a legitimacy to the event and can only help in enticing sponsors for the future.

Ok now you guys are just bringing the cynic out in me.

This is nothing like the Herb Hedemann, the Hedemann does not have teenagers out on 400m. It is a quality race with quality Athletes that make the cut and it is run in packs all pushing to get to the front. In this race because of how it is handicapped they will be spread out as far as the eye can see. Don't disrespect the Hedemann.

The Hedemann is a special event but this event is not, it has rules & regulations put in place to try and add some credability to it even though those rules are quite similar to the SAAL Computer and based around the lottery system, but these have been completely ignored.

It's quite hypocritical of the VAL to say they support Tim's initiative (which don't get me wrong I think is great) when they have never actually supported the event themselves. I think what you mean is they support Tim because he is able to put on a $2,000 Race which are rare for distance running without the VAL having to lift a finger.

As Ribera says "If any first timer runs to p.b. shape they win comfortably. If any smoky pro improves to Stawell level they win comfortably." These are the likely scenario's and neither of these are good results.

If you want to make it like the Hedemann put a tougher limit on it and only have Athlete's with proven form and then don't allow a 6 second a lap track allowance just so the First Timers can compete with an unknown smokey. Or because the First Timers are not fit enough to run to there best.

Then like Stawell do with the Hedemann you can put on a legitimate Womens 800 for the Rank & File who have paid there Rego & Entries in good faith that they will be treated fairly.

In essence if you are a regular contributor to this event with honest form on the board you don't have a chance even if you run to your best.

Lets be honest this is mutton dressed up as Lamb.

Distance wrote:Ok now you guys are just bringing the cynic out in me.

This is nothing like the Herb Hedemann, the Hedemann does not have teenagers out on 400m. It is a quality race with quality Athletes that make the cut and it is run in packs all pushing to get to the front. In this race because of how it is handicapped they will be spread out as far as the eye can see. Don't disrespect the Hedemann.

The Hedemann is a special event but this event is not, it has rules & regulations put in place to try and add some credability to it even though those rules are quite similar to the SAAL Computer and based around the lottery system, but these have been completely ignored.

It's quite hypocritical of the VAL to say they support Tim's initiative (which don't get me wrong I think is great) when they have never actually supported the event themselves. I think what you mean is they support Tim because he is able to put on a $2,000 Race which are rare for distance running without the VAL having to lift a finger.

As Ribera says "If any first timer runs to p.b. shape they win comfortably. If any smoky pro improves to Stawell level they win comfortably." These are the likely scenario's and neither of these are good results.

If you want to make it like the Hedemann put a tougher limit on it and only have Athlete's with proven form and then don't allow a 6 second a lap track allowance just so the First Timers can compete with an unknown smokey. Or because the First Timers are not fit enough to run to there best.

Then like Stawell do with the Hedemann you can put on a legitimate Womens 800 for the Rank & File who have paid there Rego & Entries in good faith that they will be treated fairly.

In essence if you are a regular contributor to this event with honest form on the board you don't have a chance even if you run to your best.

Lets be honest this is mutton dressed up as Lamb.

This is nothing like the Herb Hedemann, the Hedemann does not have teenagers out on 400m. It is a quality race with quality Athletes that make the cut and it is run in packs all pushing to get to the front. In this race because of how it is handicapped they will be spread out as far as the eye can see. Don't disrespect the Hedemann. - No your right

Just had a kid on the front mark that made race over with 2 laps to go.. The quality of the herb has definitely dropped away

Steve, Steve, Steve I don't know why I am replying to this but maybe as an Educator or maybe to make this a bit Clearer.

In the Womens 800 at Stawell there is a 150m Limit the Teenagers I refer to here at Parkdale are on 160m both who would probably run just under 3min for the 800m distance. Nearly 1min slower than the backmarker in this race who has ran 1.58

The Limit for the 1600 at Stawell is 400 there are no Teenagers off that mark.

In the Hedemann which has a tough qualifying mark to make it in which I mentioned is how you get a better class race, the Teenager you refer to ran off 95 and on grass ran a sub 4min 1500, that is class and quality. I am not sure what race you were watching

You are correct with reference to limits and I regret my throw away reference to the Herb. I certainly respect the Herb and its history.

I'll re-phrase. My thoughts are that this race is not a standard VAL race and that it is almost treated like an invitational with discretionary handicaps.
Maybe this race can build into an invitation like race with a 60-80m limit. It is in Melb and at the right time of the year.

It is good work from Tim to get these athletes to compete. I hope it is close between the first timers and the regular pro's.

In my eyes it has been handicapped diligently for this unique event.

Ribera I totally agree with almost everything you are saying and if they want to make it a unique event and a close race put a limit on it, hell make it a Women's/Vet and invite the best Vets. It would add numbers keep a strong interest and not have Athlete's entering on the proviso that the VAL are not going to abide by there own regulations, which they have failed to do in this instance.

The first Timers are being given a distinct advantage here baecause the VAL have failed to apply their own rules at the cost of the girls that keep this event alive, although just.

Everyone would understand if the VAL had come out and said we are making this an invitation race with a limit so as with the Herb nominate if you want to be considered. Don't ask Athlete's to enter under false pretences.

There is a saying that applis here "Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining"

I think we are all getting a bit ahead of ourselves and up in arms about nothing at present.

A few things:-

It's not, and was never touted as an invitation race. It's a normal (though rarely run) women's 800. It is however, dare I say it, a "feature" race on the program, due to the prize money, and the addition of some quality amo runners, including the national record holder. So, a "feature" race should probably be justified.

The VAL/handicapper has applied the rules, as well as discretion, when calculating the marks. I'm not sure where they appear to have not. Happy to be proven otherwise.

I'm unsure how athletes have entered under false pretences. Would this be the same as when Asafa came to Stawell and the limit was lifted? Had the Gift runners entered under the same false pretences?

The first timers haven't run and won yet, so let's just see how they go running in this pro environment first. Grass, having to chase, (and in the case of heat 1), Bisset having to go around 17 other runners (assuming no scratchings). [personally I would've liked to have seen 3 heats of 11/12, as I'm not a fan of the maximum number of athletes in an 800 heats in the regs, but, the heats have been drawn in occordence to the regs, so not much to do about that].

Re. the handicaps;- this race, as per the regs, is handicapped on a discretionary basis, and ALL athletes are classified as OGA. Therefore no one owns or has the right to a mark. Sounds harsh I know, but it is what it is. Now, a first timer may well romp it home, and if this happens, we can then go on a rant. Until then, could we just appreciate it for what it is:- a big $ womens 800, with a quality field of the best pro and amateur female middle distance athletes in the country. Sounds pretty cool yeah?

Well said Downesy. Couldn't agree more.
Looking forward to it.

ps. if the rains come early, it will test a few.

Well the votes are in and they are mostly for the ladies at the back. I like the inclusions of a scratch marker, the mark of honour. What people need to take in to consideration is that this is no normal race and the back markers will not only have to judge their own pace but run maybe 6 wide on the straight to finish the final.

There has been a lot of interest in this race and so there should be. Rain, hail or shine, watch this race.

Downesy I understand we are not trying to solve Third World Problems here and it may not mean much to a few people on here but doesn't mean that it is not an issue and it doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way. It is an event that is let down by the VAL due to it's handicapping guidelines then it is a kick in the guts when first timers turn up and the change all the rules.

And I am happy to be proven wrong also if this is incorrect.

Now that we are clear it is a normal race this is what is supposed to happen:

Yes it is a OGA Event with Descretionary Handicapping

"The Womens 800 distance is a stand-alone event and is handicapped on a discretionary basis. All
athletes competing in this event are classified as OGA."

However the regulations go on to say.

"For an athlete’s first entry in the Womens 800 for the season, if they have broken 2.10 in prior
seasons, they will have their handicap reduced back to 2.10"

This is there first regulation they have discarded with, Bissett has ran 1.58 and is off Scratch so hence in reality is a 1.58 runner but yes there is an allowance for doing this on an artificial track as such hence this rule:

"Adjustment for Artificial Tracks
The following additions are made to times recorded on artificial tracks for the calculation of RPMs.
This is done in order to equate times on artificial tracks to that of a good grass track.
• 70 & 100 metres – 0.1
• 200 metres – 0.2
• 300 metres – 0.5
• 400 metres and above – 1.0 per 400"

So based on this she is handicapped to run 2.00

Now yes she has to go around runners but so do a lot of other Athletes there are no allowances in the regulations for this.

Now I do not know the regulations around the Powell scenario so all I can say if you entered the event based on what the regulations say and they change them without telling anyone then yes it is clear to me you have entered under false pretences.

There are girls in this race that support this event on a regular basis who really based on the above are handicapped out of it, yes there are a limited number of this hence the opportunity to win is much harder so why potentially gift one to an Athlete who is not in there best shape by giving them a better mark than they are entitled to.

I have a good idea run them off the marks they should be then assess them on there runs tomorrow and if they are not up to it you can give them a lift for Frankston

I am not sure there is much more I can say about this, as I have mentioned the VAL don't care about this event and that don't want to do anything to fix the lottery system that exists, it is only the hard work of Tim to get this off the ground and regardless of what happens yes I will have a real interest in this event tomorrow it will be pretty cool.

Well done Tim for getting an article into today's Melb paper about the women's 800m at Parkdale. It's been a while since a pro running race got any coverage.

Great final. Great spread of marks. Excellent handicapping.

Good Final thought the Winner had them covered 400, believe Cartha called her 300 out couldn't be beaten when she hit the straight. Was virtually single dile to the line. Definitely great spread off marks cannot disagree there. Excellent Handicapping ???

8 of the 10 finalists having there first run in this event most given an advantage to get through, the only 2 that have supported this event finished 8th & 10th.

Well done to the regular girls who support this event and who turned up to run after being done over by the handicapping of this event, and look forward to seeing all the finalists at Frankston for the next one, your support will be appreciated.

Is that rain again

Yep, I stand by by assessment.

Now, if the 8/10 “non regulars” were to run at Frankston, the result may be similar to yesterday.
Just because athletes are non “regulars” doesn’t mean they should be handicapped out of it. THAT would be bad handicapping for mine.

I believe, from my own assessment the marks (as well as Ribera’s astute observation) the race was handicapped in around a certain time, and it was run and won in around said time. Solid handicapping, especially when many runners assessed from results and numbers only, and not week to week assessment.

Anyway, I think we’ve done this topic to death, so best leave it here I reckon. More than happy to discuss further in person over an beer or a coffee (if I knew who you were...)

Downesy I am not sure why you are trying to dress this up as something that it was not, and that is a fair race.

I can say exactly the same thing as you and that is that just because you are a "Regular" you shouldn't be handicapped out of it. THAT is bad handicapping.

Ribera himself said he only had a brief look at this so there was no astute observation there, and as for the time it was a heavy track it had rained all day so let's keep that positivity up there and say it was a better run than the time suggests.

My whole argument was that the first timers where given a advantage and handicapped better then the regular supporters, I think the results speak for themselves.

Sorry if I have been so negative and do not see through the same rose colored glasses as you but how the regular runners were treated here was wrong and outside the regulations that are supposed to be the foundations of our sport. And just because this is an event that the VAL don't care about doesn't make it right.

Downesy I respect what you have to say because I can tell from your post you have a lost of passion for the sport and it's future but I can't sit back this time and let you protect something that is yet another kick in the guts to REAL Members of the VAL.

As regular runners every week we are basically told this is what the regulations say and hence this is what is happening.

You said yourself it was a normal Women's 800m so why weren't the regulations followed ? I find this a bit Hypocritical from the VAL

Who are the “real members of the VAL”

Would’ve thought attracting new athletes especially elite ones would be good. 

FYI an amateur runner who ran VAL for the very first time (and did not even make the final) said to me “this is fun I’m gonna come do this more”

Just saying...

Tim I am with you attracting new Athlete especially good ones is good and as I said will love to see them at Frankston, can't wait. Not at the expense of possibly losing those that support the Event and the VAL , and by REAL Members I mean the actual one's that pay there own entries out of there own pockets.

You know the ones that put a bit of money back into the sport themselves and just don't take it and not run again.

Hope that explains it a bit better

It seems Downsie, ToM, Rosen, Mason & myself saw this as good handicapping for the circumstance. We support trying different things to grow the sport.
It was a good result considering our best pros either didn't show or were not ready. Wait until Stawell and when 2.08 is broken again. Refer back to my earlier Stawell stats.
Ill encourage Tim to scrap this event next year and put on a $600 race for you to collect ticks for Stawell.

Ribera I actually thought you were better than reverting to this type of post.

I apologies first if you find what I am trying to have an open & honest debate about here offensive, that is not my attention. And I apologies if my opinion differs to yours, as you said yourself it is just my opinion back up by as solid evidence as I can find. I have had no one yet dispute what I am saying is wrong even though Downesy said he would be happy to be proven wrong.

I provided him with the regulations that show how the race should be handicapped. Yet there seems to be a refusal to accept that I am correct. Hell I could be wrong and if I am then that would end this thread very quickly.

I certainly support trying different things to grow the sport but just make the intentions clear first, hell make it a Restrictive Women's 800m then you can apply whatever rules and marks you like. Don't go against your own rules just because you think the circumstances suit you better. The rules are there to protect both the VAL and the Runners but the runners have been let down in this instance.

The thing is that if the first timers had have been handicapped correctly it would have been a much better race, much closer and a mixture of both Regulars & Newbies. Everyone would have been happy and we wouldn't be having this debate.

This isn't about ticks for Stawell, they don't exist in this race. This is about costing someone an even chance of winning by handicapping one group of girls different to another group even when the VAL Rules make it quite clear what should happen.

Again it was a heavy track and based on what happened yesterday there is no doubt 2.08 will be broken at Stawell cause the marks will be thrown up in the air and the lottery will decide what you get.